Continuing our payments in fintech series, we talk about one of the major changes in the payments industry over the last few years: the installment lending phenomenon. Companies like AfterPay, Klarna, and Affirm (that just IPO’d and saw its stock double in one day) are leaders in this buy now, pay later (BNPL) space and appeal to Millennial and Gen Z users as well as the merchants selling to them.

These firms offer a range of installment payment options: three, six, and 12 month payback periods are typical. The interest rate gets lower the shorter the payback period and, for the shortest period, that cost is eliminated. The merchant pays for it as promotional financing. These installment loan options generally increase the size of the sale and, because the BNPL provider may take on the risk and guarantee the sale, they remove a measure of risk from the merchant. In other words, for multiple merchant categories, they increase sales.

BNPL providers accept multiple methods of payment: credit and debit cards and, of course, they may encourage the use of ACH as a low cost funding source.

For younger demographics, a majority of them without credit cards and credit histories, these services enable them to transact.

Sezzle is a player in this arena with a unique, very short term product that charges no interest to the consumer because the purchase is paid back in six weeks. The costs are born by its merchant customers. Sezzle has particular appeal to sub-prime or young consumers who may not even have a credit score.

Take a listen as Sezzle’s Chris Bixby, VP of Growth, and Glenbrook’s George Peabody dissect the Sezzle proposition and discuss the changing face of Retail in the post-COVID era.

Watch Chris describe why his customers choose the Sezzle payment option:

 

Read the Transcript

George Peabody:

Welcome to Payments on Fire, a podcast from Glenbrook Partners about the payments industry, how it works and trends in its evolution. I’m George Peabody, partner at Glenbrook and host of Payments on Fire, continuing our payments and FinTech series. I said we were going to get started with it. We did, with actually a look at an incumbent that has adapted. Now we’re going in completely another direction and talk to a startup. We’re going to talk to a startup who’s really involved one of the major changes in the payments industry over the last few years. That, of course, major one is the installment lending phenomenon. If you think of companies like Afterpay, Klarna and Affirm that, by the way, just IPO’d this past week, saw its value double over it’s asking price when it went out, it’s pretty impressive.

George Peabody:

They found great appeal amongst millennials and gen Z users, and of course the merchants selling to them. This is quite different from the traditional cards, traditional credit cards. These firms are offering a range of installment payment periods, very typically three, six and 12 months payback periods. Those are very common and the interest rate gets lower, as you can imagine, the shorter the period, and for the shortest periods, it’s often underwritten entirely by the merchant. This is a merchant marketing cost to increase basket size, increase their ability to sell. That’s gotten a lot of traction, and so therefore, because it’s increased sales and because it’s extremely useful to major demographics who don’t have big time credit history, many of them are credit averse, because they’ve seen their boomer parents, among others, struggle with overextension of credit.

George Peabody:

It’s a capability that makes a ton of sense. And today we’re going to talk about a firm called Sezzle. Sezzle is a player in this arena with a unique, very short term product. They charge no interest to the consumer, because the purchase is paid back in a six week period. It’s really interesting. Very different than some of the other ones of their competitors that we’ve seen. Again, because it’s really a marketing cost, a sales acceleration cost if you will, the costs are borne by each of its merchant customers. To dive into what Sezzle does, how it does it and the markets it serves, it’s my pleasure to welcome Chris Bixby, who’s the VP of growth at Sezzle. Chris, lovely to have you here. Thanks for joining us on Payments on Fire.

Chris Bixby:

Hey George, great to be here. It’s been fun getting to know you and joining the podcast.

George Peabody:

Cool. Let’s get into it and let’s start from here. Pretend I’m a merchant and I sell something that appeals to demographics that you’re serving. Why should I add Sezzle as a payment option in my checkout flow?

Chris Bixby:

Yeah, thanks. Why don’t I give you a quick overview of Sezzle, and we’ll jump into some of the benefits?

George Peabody:

No, answer my question.

Chris Bixby:

Sezzle is a purpose-driven payment option that allows your consumers to pay over time in installments. What that translates into for you is the ability to acquire a new customer, generally someone younger, millennial and gen Z, acquire a new customer that, as you mentioned earlier, may have be having a little bit of trouble, and then ultimately do things like build your basket size. Increase your average order value, as well as multiple other metrics that we think about as the lifetime value. We see things like increased frequency, increased conversion, add to cart rates, and even reduction in return rates. The headline is bringing a new consumer, converting a new consumer that’s looking for an alternative payment method, increase your basket size, but then there’s multiple other metrics that we feel really help the merchant, because ultimately you’re providing a payment option that a large swath of the US and younger consumers are really looking for, that resonates with them and resonates with their financial situation. We also see a big halo impact, in terms of how the brand resonates with that consumer.

George Peabody:

I’m adding a demographically appropriate, or welcome method of payment that adds to my value as a brand?

Chris Bixby:

A lot of retailers really have been looking at it as a new marketing channel. I think you mentioned a little bit of it’s a marketing acquisition cost in some ways, that payment processing fee, and that’s because either we’re driving consumers from our platforms or, or our competitors, in other cases, are driving their consumers to platforms, but it’s really about a growing with this next generation, this new generation of consumers.

George Peabody:

Before I dive back into some of the merchant questions again, talk to me more about the consumers that you are appealing to. What’s driving them? What are their concerns? What are some of their characteristics?

Chris Bixby:

Typically, they’re younger. And I think you referenced earlier that this younger generation wants to get a little bit better in terms of their financial security and financial wellbeing. A lot of these younger generations, and myself in the millennial age, grew up or, were coming of age in terms of the great recession. A lot of the characteristics that we’re seeing of why consumers are transitioning into a buy now, pay later option, is because they’ve either had negative issues with credit cards or they can’t get access to them. This year, it was published that credit card applications were down by about 30%, as well as rejection rates were up by about 30%. This is a segment of the population that’s sub-prime, and even in a lot of cases, actually, may even not even have a credit score, and so they’re trying to get access.

Chris Bixby:

I think we realized that 80% of the population is paycheck to paycheck. That’s been impacted by COVID. Stimulus checks, you don’t know when the next one’s coming, and so the ability for a consumer who doesn’t have a credit card, and it’s really a third to two-thirds of young people don’t have a credit card, they need an ability to pay.

George Peabody:

Big number.

Chris Bixby:

Yeah, it’s a really big number. And even if they have it, they may not want to use it. We see a lot of the consumers choose buy now, pay later option because they want to budget their purchases. They want that financial control in their lives to make sure they’re paying over time.

George Peabody:

What’s really struck me was how brief your payment period is, your product is. It three payments over six weeks?

Chris Bixby:

Four payments over six weeks.

George Peabody:

Four payments over six weeks. That strikes me as really short. That’s hardly the revolving credit proposition that credit cards has used for years, right?

Chris Bixby:

Yeah, and I can jump into that a little bit. I think a credit card typically is, you’re going to have your billing cycle than a 30-day pay window. The way we think about our product is the six weeks really lines up well, and every two weeks of payments, really lines up well with paycheck periods. We’ll see a lot of our consumers budget that first period of the month, and so that will go towards rent or groceries or other part of their budget. For the consumers that don’t have a credit card, this gives them that chance to pay over time. Even though a six-week window feels short to us, who primarily probably pay via credit, for a consumer that’s typically using debit, it’s a great window to spread it over paycheck periods.

George Peabody:

And just mechanically, if I’ve borrowed through you, are you pulling the money out of my account or am I explicitly initiating a payment to Sezzle?

Chris Bixby:

Yeah, we set up automatic payments. We essentially integrate with a merchant. It’s a payment option at checkout. At that point, the consumer will include very little information; basically their name, email address, cell phone, and then billing and a payment type. Once they add that payment type when the checkout is complete, we’ll capture 25% of the order at checkout and then we’ll automatically debit every two weeks thereafter. What we do though, and our goal is not to make money on consumer fees. It’s really not. It’s only 15% of our business. The vast majority of our revenue comes through that merchant processing fee, and the reason that we want to set it up that way is because we see our consumers use us 15 times a year in our 2018 cohort.

Chris Bixby:

Consumers come back and they want to use us more frequently, they want to use us often, and to do that, we’ve got to have a really friendly option. By not charging them, and hopefully not charging them, it’s really important, we allow consumers to reschedule a payment and then if they have an issue, we actually just turn off their account. Our goal is not to run up payments for us, but actually try to help them manage their budget. The big piece for us is we actually notify, text, email before that payment comes in, to try to notify our consumer that something’s going to be drawn from their account.

George Peabody:

You’re really telling them that, “Hey, this is going to drop in your account and you better have the cash in it to be able to fund the transaction.”?

Chris Bixby:

Exactly right. And I think, for our consumers, that really matters. We do a push notification, they have the app, a text and email, and for people that are budgeting and a little bit tighter leash, it’s really important to have those features.

George Peabody:

I love what you’re pointing at around the information you’re providing to your customer about the status of their account, because information about money is as valuable as the money itself sometimes, onto both sides. Really interesting. But you did say that a lot of these folks coming in, some may have had credit issues themselves, or can’t get traditional credit. How do you do the underwriting? How do you risk manage these folks? Because many of them are classic [inaudible 00:10:15] file customers, where they don’t have much data to look at from a credit point of view, a big credit history. How do you make your determinations with respect to risk?

Chris Bixby:

Yeah, a little of it’s the secret sauce. A little of it is run by people way smarter than me, but essentially the way we think of it is we do an underwriting process that’s a little bit more tailored to our consumer in the US. When we launched buy now, pay later, we were the first to launch it in the US, and it was really important to understand that 30, 40, 50%, in some cases, are very subprime or again, have no credit profile. What we lean into is we lean into a trust. We trust our consumer. We ensure that it’s not fraud and then we do pull alternative forms of data that is not a credit report.

Chris Bixby:

Occasionally, we’ll do a soft report, just so we get information on our customer base, but it’s really alternative methods, and we lean into trust. We’re not going to give someone a line or too much that we don’t think they can afford to pay back. That’s really important, in terms of that first step, and then because our consumers are using us frequently, that’s where we can graduate them along the way, in terms of their credit profile and in their credit limit.

George Peabody:

Are you looking at social data? How long they’ve had an email address, how long that’s been in existence, or how long or how active they are on a Facebook account? That kind of thing?

Chris Bixby:

Yeah, good question. I’d have to defer to our team. I know, for example, one of the things we’re definitely looking at is new email addresses, in terms of our fraud prevention. There’s a couple of layers, and we also integrate and work with the fraud protection agencies out there that are already integrating to merchant partners. We recommend running it through one of those fraud protections first, but if they don’t or if they choose not to or a customer integration don’t have that, we’ll run the fraud first and then post fraud, we still do different types of underwriting.

George Peabody:

You’re telling your merchant customers, “Go and do a fraud check.”?

Chris Bixby:

If they have it and it’s available, it just helps all of us from that standpoint.

George Peabody:

Let’s move over then, towards what your merchant customers need to be thinking about. What’s the average transaction size that you’re seeing?

Chris Bixby:

Yeah, we do pretty well in about the 75 to 150 range. That’s pretty consistent, I would say, in that short term, six week, buy now, pay later. You’ll see some of us throughout the industry, it’s good to about $600. We can underwrite up to 2,500 on a per transaction basis, but that’s a consumer that… Better credit profile, they’ve used us a lot, they’ve had a really good payment history, but we typically see that 100 dollar price point.

George Peabody:

You have this notion of moving people up through their life cycle, if you will, with Sezzle itself over time?

Chris Bixby:

That’s exactly right.

George Peabody:

Cool. What merchant categories are most likely or most suitable to the Sezzle offer?

Chris Bixby:

Yeah, I think the industry, and that we’ve seen a lot in fashion, accessories, personal care and beauty. And the primary reason for that is a couple of things. One is it already caters to a younger demographic, so that’s where they’re shopping in terms of purchase and frequency. They’re online, they’re digitally native. The second aspect of it is, honestly the margin profile and the frequency of purchase is a little bit higher than other categories. Our product is, and buy now, pay later is a little bit more expensive than a typical credit card processing fee, because we’re taking on the risk and we are taking on any repayment risk, but for that, we’re increasing basket sizes, we’re driving frequency, et cetera. We do really well and we’ve seen really good performance in, again, those fashion, beauty, et. cetera

Chris Bixby:

But, we’ve been really proud about is we have the most retailers on the platform of over 26,000, and it’s actually a very diverse group of retailers. And so it’s beyond that. Bass Pro Shops is one that we’ve been working with. It’s a little bit unique of a product, but it’s a big brand for us. UNTUCKit, Touch of Modern, now GameStop, and we’ve started to see more and more consumer electronics, home and decor, even tools and auto in different industries and categories that may be a little less frequently shopped, but also they’re needed. Whether that’s that accessory that I want to add my mobile phone, or I want to get a laptop at home that’s $300 or $400, because my kid is at home from school now, we still see more categories being introduced and good performance.

George Peabody:

What’s the impact of, as far as the merchant is concerned, on authorization rates? I’m not sure if that’s… Maybe the right term is approval rates.

Chris Bixby:

Yeah, approval rates would be what we track. We approve at about 90%, and that’s actually taking into account fraud. Because again, if they don’t run it through a fraud model, we take on all the risk. The merchant gets paid out 100% upfront, less that processing fee, and then we take the risk of repayment, but our approvals are really high. And again, I think it goes back to the start with trust the consumer. Give them enough to make the purchase, but not too much to fall flat. And so for us, the approval rate is really important, because we think it translates into better customer experience, user reviews. No one wants to get to the checkout and not be able to pay for something. We see it as a reduction of abandoned cart rate through increased conversions and better approvals.

George Peabody:

How does the merchant integrate to Sezzle? They have a do a lot of checkout shopping cart software out there for them to use. Do you integrate into the shopping carts?

Chris Bixby:

Yeah, we do a couple of different things. For the audience here, it’s probably more like a custom integration. It would be an additional checkout option. We do write and partner with payment processors, so Cybersource pay, for example is a partner of ours, and then on the, I’d say, mid-size companies and enterprise, but maybe smaller enterprise, we do integrations to things like Salesforce Commerce Cloud and then we have a broad set of our customers using things like Shopify, Magento, BigCommerce, WooCommerce, et cetera. And at that point, for our SMB, that process is actually very simple, it’s quick, it’s straightforward. They can essentially select Sezzle as a payment option for their checkout and it’s already an integration through our platforms.

Chris Bixby:

As we get into these enterprise level customers, it’s a little bit more integration work, but we’ve actually… I probably won’t go into this too much, but I always can on a followup call, we have some different integration options, in terms of how we use our virtual card solution. Your full direct integration goes through checkout. It takes time, it’s a customer project, but there’s some pretty cool ways to do it through our virtual card that actually represents a really good experience for the customer, but at the same time, a lighter integration for the dev teams and integration teams.

George Peabody:

I’m making up with that is that once you approve the sale, you’re providing the customer with a virtual card number that they use to complete the checkout on the enterprise’s website?

Chris Bixby:

Yeah, and that’s actually how we also do our in-store solution. We’ve rolled out, with a couple of merchants now, that in-store option, which is through a virtual card in our app, and then they push it to a mobile wallet. They’ll either push it to Apple or Google Pay, and then basically it gets accepted via tap at an NFC reader. It’s pretty slick.

George Peabody:

Nicely done.

Chris Bixby:

It’s actually, really… Once you have it, it’s a minute to sign, and then once you have it, it’s a really slick option.

George Peabody:

In terms of funding these transactions, we’ve talked about a little bit’s credit there, but a lot of it’s debit. On card rails, do you encourage your customers to give Sezzle their checking account numbers, so you can use ACH to fund the transaction?

Chris Bixby:

Yeah, we see about 90% of our transactions go through debit. Another side fact, about 90% of our transactions are also mobile. No reason for those two numbers between debit and mobile, but interesting fact. And then in terms of ACH, it’s something we’re looking at. Obviously our ability to reduce the interchange, and we actually do have a product that’s been rolled out that allows consumers to move over to ACH.

George Peabody:

Okay, so that’s in early days. To that point, I noticed that you’ve got some credit issuers who actually won’t allow their cards to be used to fund Sezzle’s transactions. What’s up with that?

Chris Bixby:

Yeah, that’s something that has come up. We were a little surprised by it. We had to adjust that and notify our customers when that came out. In the cases of the brands that have decided that, we haven’t seen an impact. It’s actually the credit card, and so their debit product can still be used as a payment option for Sezzle, so our approach to it is if we identify that, if an issuer comes out or a bank comes out and tells us that, or notifies their customers, we notify our customers immediately and let them know there are different options around debit and different ways to repay.

George Peabody:

And what reasons did they give you for declining to participate?

Chris Bixby:

It’s been tough. I wish I knew more. I don’t, per se, in terms of where that was. I think there’s a little bit of credit on credit, so the fact that we do a six week product and we’re giving them some sort of line of credit, I’m not too sure outside of that.

George Peabody:

I have seen some discussion out there about credit issuers, credit card issuers, looking at Affirm and at Sezzle and others askance, as that a lot of those transactions that are not being funded via credit cards, or their credit cards, they’re being funded via debit. It has an impact on their interchange revenues and the like. It’s also payment behavior gets established early in life, and then it continues on. You’re certainly picking these consumers up at early point in their financial lives, so you’re teaching them another way to pay all together, which I suspect has got some credit card issuers, and their marketing organizations, more than a little concerned. Here’s a new way to pay that we hadn’t anticipated. As your consumers become more financially… And to that point, as they become more financially capable, how are you going to respond to that? They’ll be able to handle larger transactions and will be looking for something different than a six week payback. Planning on changing that to go up more directly against a firm and their model?

Chris Bixby:

Yeah, I think, at the end of the day, it’s a super interesting ecosystem. At the end of the day, we see more payment options as a better opportunity for merchants to connect with their consumers. We touched on it earlier a little bit, but I see, maybe I’m a little biased here, but I guess we’re all payments people, I see payment as a way to connect with the consumer. The ability to offer something that they need at the right time in their life is a good representation for the brand. I do see this symbiotic relationship across the portfolio of different payment options.

Chris Bixby:

One thing that we’re really focused on is how to help our consumers build their credit. We recognize that there’s been changes in terms of how even credit cards have been able to market to consumers, so they haven’t been able to market on college campuses. For that reason, younger consumers may or may not have the ability or understanding of how credit works. We see Sezzle and buy now, pay later as, at the end of the day, a transitional product. It’s the right time and right place for a lot of people. It’s mostly young people, but they’re still in the gen X demo. It’s still about half of that population that’s not prime either. But it’s a point in time that someone needs it. And then the way we look at it is we want to graduate people. We actually just launched a product called Sezzle Up, that allows our consumers to build their credit by opting in to reporting their payments.

George Peabody:

Are you building an alternate credit score? Are you selling this credit history then, to more traditional credit bureaus or more standard issuers?

Chris Bixby:

We’re reporting it. I don’t think it’s selling. I think it’s reporting. We’re reporting it to the credit bureaus, and it’s an opt-in of the consumer, because the consumer wants to build their credit and historically they haven’t been able to in buy now, pay later. And so we’ll actually report to credit bureaus once they have actually already paid off a transaction. They come to us, we will not report them. We will not impact their score at all, but then at some point we ask, “Do you want to opt into this?” And we see about half of our consumers want to opt in, because they realize that to buy a home, to get an auto loan, to get a credit card, they’re going to need to do that. That’s one thing we’re really excited about, that launch.

Chris Bixby:

And then I’d say the second aspect is our merchants have been asking, our consumers have been asking for a product that will fit above that 600 and 1,000 dollar price point. And so we have developed a product. We’ve developed a partnership on that piece to do the underwriting and product, that would be a 60 to 60 month product, and APR and non APR, we recognize in some cases when people do a singular purchase, a couch or furniture, a TV, they stretch a little bit more, and that’s something that’s going to be rolling out here in half-one, 2021.

George Peabody:

Really intrigued with the Sezzle Up notion of increasing a consumer’s credit history. I noticed that Sezzle is a public benefits corporation. What is that? Why was the company formed under those regulations?

Chris Bixby:

Really, our founder story with Charlie and Paul and Killian and the team has really been about finding a way to financially empower the next generation. That means different things to different people and consumers and how we treat them, but for us, it means how do you bring a consumer, give them access, and then how do you help them over time? You have their back and you build them up. What we started to realize was a big part of that purpose-driven and mission-driven piece was the idea that we’re really putting our consumer and thinking about our consumer. We did go public about a year ago, probably about a year-and-a-half ago now, on the Australian Securities Exchange.

Chris Bixby:

We went public there. It’s been tremendous and terrific growth. It’s been, from a personal standpoint, a lot of fun to be a part of, but the public benefit core piece for us really reinforces that mission, and then it allows us to always ensure, through our charter, through our board meetings, through how we think about product launches, that we’re taking into account shareholder value, but really value it across all of our stakeholders. Customer, consumer, partners, employees, and then ultimately community environment. That’s been a really good thing for us. I think it’s always been part of our DNA, in a lot of ways, but codifying that and really taking a stance and then putting in as a charter, bringing it at board meetings, I think has been a really good thing for us to rally around as a company.

George Peabody:

Great. One last one last question for you, Chris, what’s been the impact of COVID on your business?

Chris Bixby:

Right time, right place for where we are and everything. At first, we were nervous. I think we all were when we hit March last year, which is crazy. It feels like a year ago, but 10 years ago and yesterday, all at the same time. We hit March and we were nervous. We saw massive displacement in our audience. We did surveys to see how many had lost jobs, had been impacted, had been put on furlough. Several of our consumers, as you can imagine, were in both the retail industry, as well as hospitality and restaurants, and so when we did our survey, we were seeing as much as 80% were being impacted immediately. Again, lost their job, reduction in pay cap or hours.

Chris Bixby:

And fortunately, enough stimulus came back pretty quick, unemployment checks started coming reasonably quick, and then we really benefited from a couple of things. We benefited from the idea of a short term installment that wasn’t going to impact consumer’s credit. They got nervous. A big reason that credit card application rates were down was because consumers got nervous that they might not be able to pay it back. They got worried about extending themselves and they didn’t know how long stimulus was going to last. They didn’t know how long they were going to be out of work, and so having something that forced them to budget over time was a really good fit for them.

Chris Bixby:

And then the second side of it was absolutely the shift to eCommerce. You can read any report right now, up 50%, 100%, 200%, and so where we were probably tracking to about 10% of eComm was about 10% of retail pre COVID, that’s 20% at this point, or higher. Certain categories, 50% of transactions like consumer electronics, 50% of transactions are online. And so there’s just been a massive tailwind there that’s benefited our business. I think the last thing is merchants are looking for new ways to acquire customers. They realized how competitive it is and they realized that by providing an option, they can help lift their basket sizes and all that other side of it, or even convert customers that are coming to their website. A lot of our merchants saw new customers come to their websites and wanted to be able to provide a payment option that fit those new customers.

George Peabody:

How do you think this is going to last once we’re all vaccinated and herd immunity is in place? What are your predictions as to how much it’s going to come back to the physical world?

Chris Bixby:

Yeah, I think it’s going to be interesting. I don’t know if this is the Sezzle take on it, but the way I look at it is there’s going to be several industries that are going to come back. We’re definitely along on in-person entertainment, we’re along on travel, we’re along on basically the idea of people getting back out there.

George Peabody:

We’re all ready to-

Chris Bixby:

We’re all ready. The question is, is this going to be six, 12, 18 months down the line? Many smart people can say multiple different things. It’s going to come back. It’s just going to be a matter of when. I think the retail landscape is going to be really interesting. What I’ve heard, we’ve been watching NRF and I’ve been attending NRF and CES and whatnot, and I think we’re all… And I would say I put myself there, I’m confident that retail is going to come back. What I’m not sure about, but I think, actually, most of these organizations have set up, is that retail is going to come back, but has already been forced to look different.

Chris Bixby:

Omni-channel approach, buy online, pickup in store. Basically stores as a fulfillment center, it’s going to be a different level. I’ve even heard the Best Buy CEO was on the other day and talking about how their portfolio and products has changed, and the Lowe’s CEO said the same thing about their actual… If they get people to a retail location, it’s going to be different than it was before. Whether that’s, in our world, faster, more seamless, contactless payments, whether it’s the ability to buy online pickup in store, but then even the selection is going to be different at the retail locations.

Chris Bixby:

People are going to be in stores shorter. That’s been a pretty significant shift of the time in store. Browsing is going to totally change, placement in store is going to change. And so I see that, but ultimately, I think retailers have realized having an approach, it’s not just eComm anymore, it’s not just retail anymore, it’s true, just commerce. And so I think that’s the thing that’s going to change the most coming out of this.

George Peabody:

I think the other thing we’d say is that COVID has been a forcing function for digitization. I’ve seen this multiple times, folks saying that we have moved three to five years faster down the digitization path than we were planning to pre COVID.

Chris Bixby:

It’s been a wild ride, to be honest. Wild ride.

George Peabody:

It sure has. Well, Chris, very grateful for your time and your observations and for introducing us to what your firm does. Really interesting, and here’s to a sane, prosperous, and a happy 2021.

Chris Bixby:

Yeah, happy new year. Hope everyone is staying safe and sound. And like you said, prosper ahead.

George Peabody:

Very good.

Chris Bixby:

Thanks, George.