In this Fanning the Flames episode of Payments on Fire, Glenbrook’s Bryan Derman, Chris Uriarte, and Russ Jones discuss Mastercard’s bold June announcement to eliminate manual card number entry for eCommerce transactions in Europe by 2030, and explore the challenges and necessary steps to achieve this goal.

The conversation centers around three core components from the announcement: tokenization, streamlined guest checkouts, and authentication via passkeys. Tune in to hear more about the mechanics of these technologies, their industry adoption, and implications for merchants, issuers, and cardholders.

 

Bryan Derman: Okay, greetings to everybody out there in payments universe. I am Bryan Derman, Managing Partner at Glenbrook Partners and hosting today’s episode of Payments on Fire. We are doing one of our quick take Fanning the Flames sessions and I have with me, my partner, Chris Uriarte.

Chris Uriarte: Hey, Bryan, how are you?

Bryan Derman: Good to have you, Chris. And Russ Jones, my other partner.

Russ Jones: Hey Bryan, let’s fan some flames here.

Bryan Derman: Yeah, welcome aboard. Okay, so if we’re fanning flames, then what’s the fire? We are here today to talk about an announcement that Mastercard made a few weeks ago, boldly making the statement for Europe, by 2030, they will stop having manual entry of card numbers into websites for eCommerce purchases. That will end by 2030, at least in Europe. Limited goal there, but pretty bold statement.

Chris Uriarte: For sure.

Bryan Derman: So, let me throw it to Chris to tell us a little more about how they’ve said that’s going to happen and we’ll gradually peel the onion and see what it’s going to take to realize the dream.

Chris Uriarte: I think for sure, Bryan, it’s a bold statement and the way that Mastercard has sort of couched this, is that it’s a reimagination of online checkout for the future. And that’s kind of a big statement, I’d say. And as you had said specifically, what they’re talking about here is Europe and a deadline by 2030 where consumers are no longer going to be manually entering their card numbers into a checkout page for eCommerce transactions. And what’s interesting is when they’ve been talking about this, they’ve kind of been talking about this at 2 different levels. They’ve been going out to the mainstream press, and they’ve, of course, been going out to the industry press and speaking to all of us that are in the payments industry and payment geeks and payment nerds out there.

But when they talk about this at the high level, what they’re really talking about is 3 components. They’re talking about leveraging tokenization for all transactions moving forward. They’re talking about what they describe as a streamlined guest checkout. And then they’re talking about authentication mechanisms, specifically with passkeys. And I think they’ve also described sort of a secondary goal here, not just about stopping PANs in the clear from being passed around, but creating consistent checkout experience across all devices all browsers, all operating systems. So that’s kind of been the 35,000 foot view.

And when you dig down a little deeper into it, we’re talking specifically about the use of click to pay. We’re talking about marrying click to pay with tokenization. And we’re talking about authentication either in line with the transaction or through your bank with passkey authentication.

Now that’s a lot to digest. And I know you guys have a lot to talk about on this topic, but let’s get into it because this is really, really interesting.

Russ Jones: Yeah, before we jump into it too deep though, that’s what they said. That’s not necessarily what was reported.

Chris Uriarte: That’s a good point, Russ.

Russ Jones: The headline on this is MasterCard to eliminate card numbers. And my reaction to when I saw that headline was like, Mastercard is not going to eliminate card numbers.

Are we going to use like a telepathy here or something for merchants to read card numbers that are inside the heads of buyers or something like that. I think you’re right here. It’s like, eliminate key entry of card numbers in online websites in Europe.

Chris Uriarte: Right. That’s the scope here. That’s what we’re talking about. Yep. By 2030.

Bryan Derman: Still ambitious, right? It sounds far away. 2030, only six years away.

Russ Jones: Yeah. They’re not going to do it by eliminating the PAN on the card. That’s sort of not the way it rolls out.

Bryan Derman: But wait, that already happened. I’ve got a Mastercard right here, which has no card number, as far as I know.

Chris Uriarte: On the card.

Bryan Derman: Therefore, I can hold it up to the camera with relative security. No one’s going to snap a picture of it and go shopping with it.

Russ Jones: Right.

Bryan Derman: But let’s break down some of those components, Chris.

Russ Jones: Let’s just hope your dentist doesn’t ask you for the card number over the phone, Bryan.

Bryan Derman: Yeah, there you go.

Russ Jones: Or you’ll tell them the same thing. I have a Mastercard right here in front of me that has no card number.

Bryan Derman: There you go. Yeah. So I guess it’s notable that they said eCommerce and not all card not present.

Russ Jones: Very, very, very important distinction there.

Bryan Derman: Okay. For all of you MOTO fans out there, you can still read your card number over the phone, if you really want to.

Russ Jones: MOTO doesn’t get enough respect around here.

Chris Uriarte: That’s right.

Bryan Derman: Mail order, telephone order for those keeping score at home. Chris ticked off a few components. One of them was tokenization and this is Glenbrook and we just can’t stop talking about tokenization here. But just to clarify, we’re talking here about network tokenization, on behalf of the issuer, to create a credential specifically assigned to the click to pay wallet. Did I say that right?

Russ Jones: Yeah, I think so. And a lot of times, breakthrough announcements oftentimes are just a restatement of things that are already there. The Click to Pay model that’s out in the industry by and large already delivers tokens to merchants.

Chris Uriarte: Right.

Russ Jones: Marrying those two together is not a breakthrough announcement here. That’s sort of like water under the bridge.

Bryan Derman: So just to level set everyone, Russ, remind us what Click to Pay is.

Russ Jones: Click to Pay is the marketing term, or the brand, I guess brand as close as anything. It’s the brand that Visa, Mastercard, and American Express have put around the secure remote commerce protocol that was developed by EMVCo, and the general idea is that a merchant, an online merchant with a website, can do 1 implementation and regardless whether the cardholder is using Click to Pay from Mastercard or from Visa or from American Express or from Discover, Click to Pay system figures out which wallet should be open and sort of neutralizes the, what used to be 10 years ago, the wallet wars between the different card networks.

Bryan Derman: So this is the merging up of things that used to be called names like Mastercard Secure.

Russ Jones: They used to be called Masterpass. It’s sort of like Masterpass and Visa Checkout, they all sort of blended together and they evolved and they’ve been replaced now, literally replaced with Click to Pay as the brand. In a credible way, it has simplified things for merchants.

You just do 1 implementation and you get all these different wallets from all these different card networks and you don’t have to worry in the back office about whether or not you want to support Masterpass but not Visa Checkout or anything like that. You’re just sort of deciding as a merchant, am I going to support card network wallets? Yes or no?

Bryan Derman: I do it once, I get them all.

Russ Jones: Yeah, Click to Pay.

Bryan Derman: That’s almost always a good proposition.

Russ Jones: Yeah. And so then what I get in the checkout flow, when the customer clicks on Click to Pay, what I as a merchant get is a tokenized card credential. So it’s really pretty slick.

Chris Uriarte: Yeah, it is pretty slick.

Bryan Derman: Chris, I think the third piece of technology you laid out was the passkey and biometric aspect of it. Do you want to unpack that a little bit?

Chris Uriarte: Yeah. So maybe taking a step back, just talking a little bit more about how Click to Pay works, is the idea is that a consumer would click the Click to Pay button, which is a standardized button that EMVCo sort of licenses, is the term that they use to merchants and other providers within the value chain.

So it’s kind of a common look and feel at checkout. The consumer would click on that button and then they would choose the card that they want to use and they would be authenticated by the issuer. So, today, the very common approach here is to use a one-time password from the issuer that’s sent to the email address or the registered phone number that’s on file with the issuer. Mastercard has talked about the implementation of passkeys in that authentication step. Everything that we’ve been talking about from tokenization to Click to Pay to passkeys are standards that are out there in the industry. So tokenization, Click to Pay, as we’ve said, are EMVCo standards. Passkeys are a FIDO Alliance standard for authentication and the use of biometrics that authentication. So, Mastercard would like to see that authentication step being done using passkeys, using biometric authentication. And in their announcements, they talk about the utilization of those passkeys, either in line with the transaction, or perhaps being done through your bank’s app, for example, similar to what’s done today when you get a push notification from your bank to authenticate on a transaction.

So, they would certainly like to see more adoption of biometric authentication, more adoption of passkeys. And as we talked about, passkeys have been around for a while, but we still haven’t seen a really huge pickup yet from a consumer perspective. I think there’s a lot of work to be done around adoption, around education, and still has a little bit of work to be done to get down to the everyday man, as opposed to the tech nerd or the payments guru.

Russ Jones: I saw Chris, I was just Googling around this morning and I saw some claim that 20 of the top 100 merchants online today support passkey. And I was kind of surprised by that.

Chris Uriarte: I’d be surprised at that. Yeah.

Russ Jones: I didn’t think adoption was that high. And I’ve sort of on my own been pleasantly surprised anytime I see an online merchant adopting passkey. But the thing that’s going to push the everyday consumer over the hump here is when Amazon supports it. It’s either Amazon supports it, or it doesn’t support it. And that has enormous implications.

Bryan Derman: If you think about the UX, how big a leap is it to the consumer to use passkeys? They don’t really have to enable anything, do I?

Chris Uriarte: Well, there is an enrollment. As part of the passkey process, there is an initial enrollment where you do have to essentially say, I want to use passkeys. Then you have to authenticate biometrically, essentially go through the T’s and C’s and once that enrollment process is done, every subsequent transaction is nothing more than just your device prompting you for biometric authentication.

Bryan Derman: Which is great, right? That’s the way a lot of people use passwords, right? They’ve got a password manager and that opens biometrically.

Chris Uriarte: Absolutely. Yeah.

Bryan Derman: The scariest part of that whole process, just to play the layman here for two seconds, is the use of the term passkey, because that sounds new and different. If you’re asking me, would you like to start using passkeys on this site? I’m going to have to stop everything I’m doing and call Chris and ask him what I should say in answer to that.

Russ Jones: The other thing is going on in the background in the, in the broader industry here is that online commerce has dramatically shifted over to devices that have biometric authentication built in. It’s shifted over to smartphones, it’s shifted over to tablets. For people who use Apple Pay and Google Pay, this whole scheme is not a lot different from a user experience point of view, if any different at all from a user experience.

Bryan Derman: Tokenized credentials in a wallet that is authenticated by a biometric, right. Describes all of them.

Chris Uriarte: The key is, is you have to get that consumer to enroll. You have to prompt the consumer, force them to do it, incent them to do it in some way. So there’s a distinction between what Russ said earlier, which is an eCommerce site saying that they support passkeys versus the actual adoption of passkeys by their consumers.

So while whatever.com, I’ll try to, I can’t think of somebody off the top of my head that supports it, but if some e commerce site says that they support passkeys, it’s very likely today that probably a minuscule amount of their consumers actually have it enabled.

Russ Jones: I just saw it this weekend on Best Buy’s website. I was buying something and they asked me if I wanted to set up a passkey. And I, unfortunately, I said later.

Bryan Derman: Just to be clear, though, to use the payment method that we’re talking about here, I need to accept passkeys for Click to Pay, I think, right?

Chris Uriarte: You don’t have to. Yeah, you don’t have to. So it really comes down to the issuer and how they want to authenticate with you. So it is in the hands of the issuer. And I don’t imagine even 6 years from now in 2030, that Mastercard or any other card network would put a requirement that there has to be a passkey authentication performed in line there because that still does limit your audience.

Your audience needs to have a device that has sort of a FIDO compatible biometric reader on it. And while, as Russ said, we’ve got more and more of those in the hands of individuals, not everybody has them, right?

Bryan Derman: There’s going to be a lot of laptops and desktops that don’t have them for years to come.

Chris Uriarte: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, SMS OTP is unfortunately going to be around for a while probably.

Russ Jones: Yeah. And what Mastercard is saying here is, they’re trying to push the industry in the right direction by saying our issuers need to embrace passkey authentication of their customers when they’re making a purchase using our branded cards. Boy, that’s a great, a great statement to make.

My bank is not a Mastercard issuer and God knows it’s not in Europe, but I wish they implemented passkeys like yesterday.

Chris Uriarte: Yeah, agreed.

Bryan Derman: Let’s sort of do our stakeholder analysis here and start with the cardholder. Chris described a little of the user interface there. How does a cardholder even get Click to Pay?

Chris Uriarte: Yeah, it’s presented to them at checkout as a button. And if they have not already enrolled it will bring them through the enrollment process once they choose it. And I would suspect that many people listening to this podcast today, even those folks that we have that are in the payments industry, of course, probably don’t even realize that Click to Pay is available today at a lot of eCommerce sites.

We kind of pass by it. I noticed that the other day as I was really paying attention to checkout at a site. I said, oh, there’s a Click to Pay button. I haven’t seen that in a while. But it’s there and it’s been around and I think there just needs to be a little bit more done around consumer awareness. But click the button and it brings you through the process if you haven’t enrolled yet.

Bryan Derman: And I think it’s going to drag along all of the cards that have been in those precursor wallets, right? It will pre-populate with cards. With all the cards that the networks know about that I had previously stored and I guess tokenized.

Russ Jones: Yeah, that’s always been sort of the aspirational dream. When it comes to card networks and their wallets, they’ve always had this aspirational dream that one of the differentiators or one of the key success factors will be that their issuers will deploy the wallets and they will pre-populate the wallets with the cards they issue, and they’ve had that aspiration a decade.

So what might be new here, and in fact what felt new to me was actually hearing Mastercard say that their issuers would be pre-provisioning-

Chris Uriarte: Yeah.

Russ Jones: – Mastercard branded products into Click to Pay without the consumer having to go through the card by card-by-card sort of process.

Chris Uriarte: Interesting enough, this is a story we’ve already heard this year and the story, the other story is related to Paze because this is the model that’s very similar to the Paze model. That consortium of folks that make up the owners of Early Warning, EWS, are the ones that are initially launching the Paze wallet and pre-populating the Paze wallet with the goals of eventually getting all the issuers in the U.S. Now Paze is U.S. specific and there’s no mandates to support Paze from an issuer perspective, but the model is similar.

Russ Jones: Yeah. Chris, you’re hitting on the, when you look at the feature list on Paze, the number 1 feature list was 170 million pre-provisioned cards into Paze wallets. And that’s enough to make anyone look up and say, wow, that’s a lot of cards. That’s a lot of buying power ready to go in a digital, in a digital wallet.

Bryan Derman: Let me pivot us to the next stakeholder and Chris, you were starting to transition into this. To make this work and to realize that dream in Europe of no more manual entry, am I right that every eCommerce merchant would have to enable Click to Pay?

Chris Uriarte: Yes. Yeah, that’s right.

Russ Jones: Yeah, but that’s not as big of a hurdle as it used to be. Go back to the early days of online commerce. It’s not every merchant has to do this, and most merchants don’t accept any form of payment, really. It’s the PSP that they’re aligned with. The PSP is the one who supports Apple Pay, supports Google Pay, supports Click to Pay.

Maybe Mastercard senses that the market dynamics have changed enough that by aligning themselves from a strategy point of view with maybe 20 to 30 payment service providers in Europe, they have enough coverage to turn on maybe 80 percent of the merchants in Europe.

What they end up doing is just notifying the merchants, good news, thanks to our hard work and our partnership with Mastercard, we now support Click to Pay.

Bryan Derman: And they don’t have to do it alone to realize their dream. Apple Pay and Google Pay get them there, Samsung Pay, et cetera, all advance the cause. So let’s keep going around and talk about issuers. I think this does mean that all issuers, most do support network tokenization, but to really stop manual entry, you’d have to say all issuers are going to support network tokenization of their cards or EMVCo tokenization.

Russ Jones: It’s the classic thing. It’s most do, but all don’t.

When you look at the arc of how card network technology gets adopted, it goes through this well-defined sort of life cycle where there’s early stage adoption, there’s incentives, there’s mainstream usage, it’s still optional, but there’s mainstream usage and then most issuers do it or most acquirers do it or something like that. And at some point, you have a straggler effect where most do, but all don’t. And so the requirement to do it becomes not cajoling, but becomes a mandate, and it sounds like this is going to be a mandate in Europe for Mastercard issuers to support EMVCo tokenization.

Chris Uriarte: Yeah absolutely.

Russ Jones: That’s, that’s pure goodness.

Bryan Derman: Okay, so let’s tie these things together now. We want cardholders to enroll in Click to Pay with passkeys. We want the merchants to implement it with their PSPs as a payment checkout method. We need the issuers to support it by enabling tokenization through the network.

So you multiply the fractions there, can we get that done in the next six years? 2030 isn’t as far away as it sounds.

Chris Uriarte: Yeah, I think so. Based on, as we talked about before, these technologies have been around for a while and these standards have been around for a while. So when we talk about tokenization today, obviously to merchants, it’s a very different conversation than say, talking about tokenization 3 or 4 years ago. Most merchants are much more aware as to what tokenization is.

If they haven’t implemented it, it might be on their radar. They perhaps researched it. So they do understand some of the implications and it is fairly well supported throughout the entire ecosystem. When you look at Click to Pay itself, the technical implementation of Click to Pay is fairly simple and fairly straightforward.

I think the most important thing to note is that this is not sort of a huge paradigm shift in the payments world. I mean, it’s a little bit, obviously, different way that the consumer interacts, but if we rewind the clock back to say, 10 years or so in Europe, when PSD2 was implemented and you looked at the requirements for Strong Customer Authentication, all the rules around that, now the widespread implementation of 3D-Secure, all the complexities around exemptions, when SCA is required, when it’s not required. That was a real shock to the system. That was a revolution. That was a huge change, right? I think this is a little different.

Bryan Derman: Great issue there. For years now, we’ve sort of treated SCA and 3D-Secure as the same thing, or you might easily misstate it and say, SCA means I have to use 3D-Secure. The answer’s, not really. SCA means you need to use SCA. So what does all this mean for 3D Secure, I guess is where I’m going.

Russ Jones: Well, this model that Mastercard is moving towards is fully SCA compliant. It sort of takes like the emotional thing about 3D-Secure, about, well, do I want to use it? Do I not want to use it? I’m required to do it. Can I get a waiver? Should I use the waiver? Does it make sense to? Am I better off getting the waiver or not going for the waiver? There’s a lot of decisioning that merchants have to go through. This sort of takes all that decisioning off the table. It only takes it off the table though for Mastercard transactions. It’s still out there and 3D-Secure is still an important part of the way a card-accepting merchant becomes SCA compliant. The other thing that’s interesting about that is, to Chris’s point earlier about what a shock PSD2 was to the world of, particularly the world of online merchants, it wasn’t that much of a shock to banks, but it was a big shock to online merchants. PSD2 in Europe has conditioned the ecosystem to do this type of stuff. To do two-factor authentication, to use biometrics, the idea that the bank is always authenticating their customer. All of that’s normal thinking in Europe right now. So this is not a giant change of direction inside of Europe.

Bryan Derman: No, consistent. And maybe a streamlining of it, right?

Russ Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s exactly right. In the U.S., this would be like a screwdriver in the spokes while you’re riding your bicycle because 3D-Secure is so foreign in the U.S. to cardholders who shop online. And the whole country is comfortable with zero factor authentication. When Europe is 2-factor authentication, SCA is 2-factor authentication, online merchants in the U.S. are zero factor authentication. And to say that all of a sudden, you’re going to jump from kind of a willy nilly, let’s hope there’s no chargebacks, type of approach to everything’s going to be authenticated, everything’s going to be secured, we’re going to use passkey authentication with issuers, it would be a total shock to the U.S. online merchants.

Chris Uriarte: So Russ, you essentially just answered a question that came up fairly frequently after this Master card announcement was made, which was why is this just focused on Europe? And this is exactly why.

Russ Jones: Yeah, that’s exactly right. Yeah.

Bryan Derman: They’re a little more ready for it than we are. Yep.

Russ Jones: When we look at SCA, we sort of always point to Europe and we point to the PSD2 legal requirements. But strong customer authentication, that model is expanding around the world, and now it’s in countries that are not in Europe, and you could very well think that if this Mastercard initiative succeeds, that the dominoes will tumble in other countries as well.

Bryan Derman: Right. Interesting. We were sort of saying in passing there that all transactions will be authenticated someday, but there are a growing number that are, and that’s often accompanied by a liability shift from acquirer slash merchant over to the issuing side.

That’s always been true with 3D-Secure. It’s now true, I think, across the board with Apple Pay, Google Pay and Samsung Pay. We’ve got merchant tokenization, but I guess not authentication. So there’s no shift there. But you layer on Click to Pay with that and are we headed to a world where more liability for eComm transactions will lie with the issuer than lies with the merchant? If that’s true, we’re going to have to redo a lot of slides, Russ.

Chris Uriarte: So again, I think you have to think about the scope of this, right? we’re talking about Europe here, so for customer-initiated transactions, and I really want to stress that, right? For customer-initiated transactions. A good bulk of those transactions fall under some type of scheme that already shifts liability, whether it’s all out sort of authentication with 3D-Secure, the use of Apple Pay or Google Pay, or things along those lines.

So, I think this perhaps expands that universe a little bit. But we also want to stress that there is still a set of transactions, merchant-initiated transactions, any transaction that continues to use PAN. I’ll go back to what Russ started with. PAN is not going away, right?

It’s not necessarily going away here for all transactions. So there is still going to be a bulk of transactions where merchants have the liability, but perhaps we are inching more toward a model where a more significant portion of the liability is shifting to the issuer.

Bryan Derman: And I’ve got to think those manually entered transactions are going to look more and more suspicious to my fraud detection system, to a machine learning algorithm that’s looking for fraud.

Russ Jones: You’re absolutely right, Brian. The key attribute of the manually entered PAN is it doesn’t have dynamic security codes. It doesn’t have cryptograms. And so when the issuer looks at an authorization request with a cryptogram versus an authorization request without a cryptogram, not only will they decision differently, but they’ll see different outcomes.

And it will be all the justification in the world to decision differently and be more suspicious of the authorization requests that don’t have cryptograms associated with them.

Chris Uriarte: Yeah, for sure. And we are seeing a reaction to a lot of these liability shifts from both merchants and fraud prevention service providers as well. So, we’ve had liability shift in place on the mobile wallets for quite some time, with the exception of the Visa network in the U.S. until just recently. But now we’re at a place where any transaction, customer-initiated transaction that uses Apple Pay or Google Pay for example, it has a liability shift associated with it. The merchants are not liable for those transactions. So, what has happened is the merchants are asking questions around, well, great if I don’t have liability, should I be paying for these transactions every time I send them to my fraud prevention provider? Or, should I have a discounted rate or something along those lines? These are real questions that merchants have asked. And on the flip side, the providers themselves are a little bit concerned because obviously their whole value proposition is protecting the merchant on transactions that they are liable for and as we continue to see more and more of those transactions shift to the issuer, there’s a little bit of concern there that that will have long term revenue implications to them, number 1, but number 2, fraud prevention providers don’t want to be in a position where they’re not seeing all the transactions across the merchant’s universe because a merchant says, hey, listen, I’m not going to send these to you because I don’t have liability on these so I don’t want to pay for them. That really, really screws up the model on the fraud prevention provider side. So the industry is going to have to shift a little bit sort of from a commercial standpoint to adapt to this changing nature and liability shift and we’re already seeing these questions being asked by both providers and merchants.

Bryan Derman: Our merchant clients would think me remiss if I didn’t ask you guys, any early thoughts on what it could mean for approval rates? So important to merchants doing all kinds of things to optimize approval rates.

Russ Jones: I think the theory here would say that the approval rates are going to go up when issuers are involved in authenticating their customers, the cardholder. They’re going to have more confidence that it’s the actual cardholder, the legitimate cardholder who’s making the purchase.

And I think we’ve sort of seen that borne out with Apple Pay and Google Pay, and I think Apple Pay to even a greater degree. I know that’s a big point of discussion in the Merchant Risk Council is, what are the authorization approval rate differences between transactions initiated out of Google Wallet versus an Apple Wallet?

Chris Uriarte: Right, well, Visa’s latest claims are that tokenized transactions have a 4.6 percent higher approval rate than non-tokenized transactions. So if we believe that, then perhaps just the continued growth and utilization of tokenization for more and more transactions equates to higher approval rates across the board.

Russ Jones: Let’s be careful there, Chris. It’s not the use of tokenization. It’s the use of tokenization where the issuer has authenticated the credential in the wallet.

Chris Uriarte: Yep, that is a great point. Yeah.

Bryan Derman: Yeah. And the layering of those, the way they’re mashed up in these solutions seems powerful. Yes, it’s tokenized, but it’s also biometrically authenticated. That’s a powerful combination.

Chris Uriarte: For sure.

Bryan Derman: Big improvement on zero factor, right? Well, great. Thank you, guys. I think we learned a lot here and explored a lot of the implications here. We will look forward to the comments of our listeners on this. And I’m sure we’ll have more to say as we crawl our way toward 2030.

Chris Uriarte: For sure. We’ll, we’ll schedule a follow up.

Bryan Derman: See how adoption is going. Yeah, maybe we’ll make this an annual event.

Chris Uriarte: We’ll schedule a follow up in July 2030. We’ll check in.

Bryan Derman: Okay, folks, it’s July 2029. Are we going to make it? All right. Thank you very much for your help today. Great to have you on the podcast.

Russ Jones: Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Bryan.